Remind me why they changed it.
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the same place for this track.
In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.
On 2020-09-13 9:27 a.m., Alan LeHun wrote:
In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>, bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.
No, I don't think that's the case.
The safety line defines the first point that the leader can start to accelerate by the rules. The start line defines the last point that
the leader can start to accelerate...
...if he wants to remain the leader.
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track is
limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800
feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field
can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal station,
and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at
precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't aware
but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.
Alan LeHun wrote:
In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>,
bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.
I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
in 2019.
If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line although I could tell you which years each happened.
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
On 14/09/2020 5:50 am, Bigbird wrote:
Alan LeHun wrote:
In article <xn0miv1r83n4ra8006@news.eternal-september.org>,
bigbird.nospam.usenet@gmail.com says...
I understand that part, I don't remember the reason for the change
(back) to no overtaking until the start line.
I think that was a track specific ruling rather than a change of
regulations. Or, iow, the safety line and the start line are at the
same place for this track.
I have just checked the regs it used to be the first SC line (for the
previous 5 years or at least) and changed (back) to the "control line"
in 2019.
If you remember we used to have the problem of cars concertinaring up
behind lapped cars until the reached the control line. Then they
allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves and then changed to the SC line
although I could tell you which years each happened.
I thought that was changed due to someone going into the pits and
gaining positions? Or not...
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four
races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by anyIt's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
half-arsed self-promoting software.
exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)
driving have helped on Sunday?
larkim wrote:Yep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the concertina effect.
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the
F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety car
didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four
races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief
has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the
exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)From decision, note third paragraph.
driving have helped on Sunday?
"The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the inconsistent
application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the pit straight, by the
above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location of
the Control
Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
advantage of the restart.
However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be exercised
in the restart
situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect which dramatically
increased as it moved down the field.
We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved in the incident had
they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so they effectively blocked
off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of the preceding car. "
--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control
when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on track
is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located
nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare that the
entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back
to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
...will probably get a rethink.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
Remind me why they changed it.
The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?
On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
then everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
back to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly
well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels
alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims, actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and
then everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact same
moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars on
track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is
located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So it's rare
that the entire field can't see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every marshal
station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes
back to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably aren't
aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly
well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim to be
an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what is
advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels
alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims, actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to elaborate
on what you don't understand.
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 13:37:32 UTC+1, Bigbird wrote:
larkim wrote:
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend
the F2 and F3 races were the same. The lead car after a safety
car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to
minimise the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it
OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers /
teams had already seen how the teenagers managed it without
incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their
race....
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious
belief has a cozy little classification in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to
the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap)From decision, note third paragraph.
driving have helped on Sunday?
"The Stewards conclude that the root cause of this incident was the inconsistent
application of throttle and brake, from the final corner along the
pit straight, by the
above drivers. The Stewards acknowledge the challenges the location
of the Control
Line presents at this circuit and the desire of drivers to take
advantage of the restart.
However this incident demonstrates the need for caution to be
exercised in the restart
situation and note that there was an extreme concertina effect
which dramatically
increased as it moved down the field.
We also note that some drivers might have avoided being involved inYep, I'm trying to reconcile it all in my head. It felt like they
the incident had
they not followed directly behind the car in front. By doing so
they effectively blocked
off all visibility of what was happening immediately in front of
the preceding car. "
--
Bozo bin
Texasgate
Heron
Enjoy!
were spread out side to side, and that meant there was no room for
left / right avoidance. But equally, I can see how the fact that all
you can see is the car in front would also contribute to the
concertina effect.
On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
same moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works perfectly well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.
I asked you first...
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?
Again:
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
Or are you scared to answer?
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then everyone
begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green light),
is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be seen by
the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
On Monday, 14 September 2020 at 05:51:08 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 14/09/2020 1:40 am, Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.What I find completely amazing is that throughout the weekend the F2 and F3 races were the same.
Remind me why they changed it.
The lead car after a safety car didn't floor it until very near the start / safety line to minimise
the tow effect. All of those your drivers managed it OK over four races.
It's as if the F1 race was at a different track. The drivers / teams had already seen how the
teenagers managed it without incident and you'd think they'd be ready for similar in their race....
--
Shaun.
It's always surprised me that the relevant SC line was close to the exit of the final turn, rather than the start/finish line.
Now I realise why that is a sensible idea.
Would some requirement to enforce single file (i.e. no overlap) driving have helped on Sunday?
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to be
seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting area
all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is first
displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, shall
be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to penalty.
Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.
I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.
"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
"What speed is prohibited?"
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"
(This is all a separate subject from the initial
starting of a race.-a The normal instructions to
the pole setter are that after the Safety Car pulls
off, the pole sitter is in charge of setting the
pace and it is to be mild acceleration until
the green flag is waved.-a So, of course he will
normally go to where he has peak torque.)
On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag be
positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un
On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when
everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to
be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to
penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.
Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un
...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a constant speed until the green flag is waved.
On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when >>>>>>> everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able to >>>>> be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting
area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is
first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag
be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject to >>>>> penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.
Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un
...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.
I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
on the start of the race, and a restart.
Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".
Again:
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.
I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.
"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
"What speed is prohibited?"
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.
" When conditions permit,
the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."
"Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!
On 2020-09-15 2:03 p.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control when >>>>>>>> everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then
everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently
before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green
light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able
to be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting >>>>>> area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is >>>>>> first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green flag >>>>>> be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or
attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light,
shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject
to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.'
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.
Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un
...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.
I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
on the start of the race, and a restart.
Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".
Again:
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
You're splitting hairs, L...
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.
The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.
I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.
"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
No.
"What speed is prohibited?"
Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
it turned out its lights.
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"
By experience and judgement.
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.
Which starts would those be?
" When conditions permit,
the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."
"Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!
If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.
On 9/16/2020 2:47 PM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 2:03 p.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 11:15 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 11:13 a.m., Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 10:44 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/15/2020 9:49 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-15 8:32 a.m., a425couple wrote:
On 9/13/2020 8:28 AM, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver control >>>>>>>>> when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag, and then >>>>>>>>> everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Perhaps that is true now.
Ahhh, have your rules changed in the last couple of years?
Or, has your Starter / Flagman stated his opinions recently?
It's been true for every year that I've raced, so since 2013...
...and I don't believe it to have been changed any time recently >>>>>>> before that.
Straight from our race regulations:
Racing Commences At The Green Flag
'A.
A driver may only commence racing when the green flag (or green >>>>>>> light), is shown by the starter and not until the signal is able >>>>>>> to be seen by the driver.
B.
During rolling starts where because of the layout of the starting >>>>>>> area all drivers may not be able to see the green flag when it is >>>>>>> first displayed, the Steward may instruct that a second green
flag be positioned to "echo" the starter's flag.
C.
Any driver leaving the formation of the grid, and/or passing or >>>>>>> attempting to pass before seeing the green flag, or green light, >>>>>>> shall be considered to be jumping the start and shall be subject >>>>>>> to penalty. Such penalties are not subject to protest or appeal.' >>>>>>>
I recall hearing the long time person say,
"My concerns are: 1. Is it legal?-a 2.-a Is it safe?
3.-a Is it fair?"
I recall us dropping back from the SC, then porking it to
the firewall coming out of the final sweeper.
Because he felt it met the 3 criteria.
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
Lee, I like you, man... ...but come on.
Sorry. Left a sentence unfinished
1. In F1, the leader decides when to go back to race pace. Un
...like our rules, where it explicitly states the leader will hold a
constant speed until the green flag is waved.
I really wish you would not intentionally confuse the
issue by mixing up the discussion on the rules
on the start of the race, and a restart.
Clearly in my post from 10:44 I was writing about
a restart.-a Note the repeated use of word "restart".
Again:
I do not see anything in your written regulations
that prohibits the restarts we have been seeing in F1,
or the restarts I described.
You're splitting hairs, L...
Nothing in those written regulations mandate the
speed of the car leading the pack for the restart.
The rules for starting from behind a pace car mandate precisely that.
I'd suggest (either in private, or at a Driver's Meeting)
asking the Starter / Flagman his interpretation.
"Does the leading car approaching a restart have the
right to determine his own desired speed?"
No.
"What speed is prohibited?"
Any speed faster than the speed set by the pace car immediately before
it turned out its lights.
"How is that 'prohibited' speed determined?"
By experience and judgement.
The Canadian long time Flager / Starter felt
those restarts were fine and waved the Green Flag.
Which starts would those be?
" When conditions permit,
the Pace Car will exit the track and the Starter will
permit the race to continue with a green flag. All cars
shall hold their position until the green flag is displayed."
"Hold their positions" does not dictate constant speed!
If it is dictated that the leader not accelerate, then holding your
position behind him DOES mean constant speed, L.
Sheesh.
For restarts, there is no written rule against the leader
accelerating.
Holding position, means not passing anyone.
The leader can accelerate after the pace car pulls off.
You have gotten used to one way.
That does not mean your rules dictate things be that way.
Just like F1 got used to the leader flooring it
by the last corner.
But, in this last race Bottas did not, and he was
not required to.
Sept. 3 2006.-a Group 6-a We had a full course yellow
for laps 10 & 11.-a I was very concerned that Styan
that I had been leading would jump me on the restart.
I accelerated hard half way through what was then
the last turn.-a The Starter / Flagger gave me the
Green.
JUST LIKE F1 now mostly does.
I took 1st Overall in Group 6 Sports Racers & FV.
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading driver
control when everyone can take off is a bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green flag,
and then everyone begins racing at the same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the exact
same moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of cars
on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish
is located nearly 800 feet from the exit of turn 9. So
it's rare that the entire field can't see the starter's
green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that
everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you probably
aren't aware but they have a system for the VSC which works
perfectly well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't claim
to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine what
is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over
flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.
I asked you first...
Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited your knowledge is.
Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.
Do you need more explained?
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.
??
Fuckwit.
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an
explanation do you need?
Again:
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.
The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able to
see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.
Panels alone leave too much room for errors.
Fuckwit.
Or are you scared to answer?
On 2020-09-15 2:31 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 11:26 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-14 2:07 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 4:05 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 2:56 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 14/09/2020 3:28 am, Alan Baker wrote:
On 2020-09-13 6:40 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
...will probably get a rethink.
Remind me why they changed it.
I've always thought that letting the leading
driver control when everyone can take off is a
bit dicey.
When our races restart, we wait for the green
flag, and then everyone begins racing at the
same moment.
Jeepers. Hopefully everybody can see one at the
exact same moment !
Our track isn't that long, so the maximum number of
cars on track is limited to (I think) 40, and our start/finish is located nearly 800 feet from the exit
of turn 9. So it's rare that the entire field can't
see the starter's green flag.
But with F1 they have light panels located at every
marshal station, and they could be used to ensure that everyone goes back to racing at precisely the same
moment.
Are you still hung up on those dodgy panels; you
probably aren't aware but they have a system for the
VSC which works perfectly well.
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
You're just showing you're butthurt; unlike you I don't
claim to be an expert.
[snip partial list of flags/panels]
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to
that?
"imagine"; so to be clear you are saying you can't imagine
what is advantageous about the VSC restart procedure over flags/panels alone.
Do you even know what I am referring to?
I'm saying that you've made a claimrCoa couple of claims,
actually...
...and you've provided no explanation or support of either.
So you are scared to answer my question and aren't going to
elaborate on what you don't understand.
I asked you first...
Oh dear, you are such a dick. So you want me to guess how limited
your knowledge is.
Okay so the VSC utilises the "official messaging system" and they
could also utilise in ear tones.
Yeah...
...and a system that informs the TEAMS (not the driver directly) is
useful in the scenario of a safe restart...
how?
Do you need more explained?
...so explain how you aren't scared to answer MY question.
??
Fuckwit.
Again, do you know the VSC start procedure... how remedial an explanation do you need?
Again:
What in your "expert" opinion makes the panels "dodgy"?
For one recent example, the Monza discussion and a the panels not
being recognised nor displaying the correct signal.
Green is pretty well understood, and the fact that one driver forgot
his obligation to look at the marshaling signals is hardly an
indictment of the entire system.
The number of times driver fail to see them and drivers being able
to see them at all times of due to natural lighting conditions.
Now you're just make shit up?
What do you imagine makes the "system for VSC" superior to that?
The VSC also utilises the "official messaging system" and they could
also utilise in ear tones.
They could release white doves... ...but we're talking about what
they ARE doing...
...and the "official messaging system informs the TEAM...
...who would then have to inform the driver that racing is back on.
Panels alone leave too much room for errors.
And yet panels (and flags) have been used successfully for decades
for everything else.
Or are you scared to answer?
Fuckwit.
LOL
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