Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty >> unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes >> to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully >> done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various exemptions from appeals.
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't >>> appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty >>>> unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation. >>> The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) >>> but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an
approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA
don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:In fairness to whoever switched the feed at the time, they couldn't have predicted the corner - unless
On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>> exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >> don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:Max's onboard is now live on the official website https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, they know we know they have it.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have notFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>> exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >> don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 09:56:11 UTC, ~misfit~ wrote:
On 16/11/2021 9:41 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:Max's onboard is now live on the official website
On Tuesday, 16 November 2021 at 00:02:10 UTC, geoff wrote:If you pay the full quid and get the F1 app you can chose to follow any driver's on-board camera.
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:I'd bet at some point Max's wheel footage comes out. We know they have it, >>> they know we know they have it.
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching anFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it doesn't
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>>>> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>>>> exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat) >>>>> but doesn't have to. The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an >>>> approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA >>>> don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
Each feed is edited in real-time. 99% of the time it's the forward-facing camera but whoever was
running Max' feed switched to the rear-facing camera just as Lewis passed him. WTF??? Is the feed
run by the team? So nobody outside FOM / FIA got to see the front-facing feed. How... Convenient?
--
Shaun.
"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by anyMax's onboard is now live on the official website
half-arsed self-promoting software.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need for
any further investigation.
And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit kerb
and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and that's
still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing room, but
it at least explains how we got where we are.
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by anyMax's onboard is now live on the official website
half-arsed self-promoting software.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
for any further investigation.
And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and
a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit
kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and
that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing
room, but it at least explains how we got where we are.
So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was rCyunavailable to
the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard footage
from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had not
had access to the forward facing onboard camera from VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting its
rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was rCyunavailable to
the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard footage
from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had not
had access to the forward facing onboard camera from VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting its
rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
On 2021-11-16 12:40 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by anyMax's onboard is now live on the official website
half-arsed self-promoting software.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
for any further investigation.
And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still think
he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a line and
a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right to the exit
kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track entirely, and
that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a competitor racing
room, but it at least explains how we got where we are.
So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.
It was going to make the corner until Verstappen picked up some understeer.
But he's responsible for leaving room...
...and he clearly wasn't going to leave any.
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was rCyunavailable >> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.rCO >>
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had
not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from VerstappenrCOs
car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting
its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
On 17/11/2021 10:18 am, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 12:40 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 9:27 am, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 6:07 a.m., Matt Larkin wrote:
This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by anyMax's onboard is now live on the official website
half-arsed self-promoting software.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
If he did, he may have made his own decision that there was no need
for any further investigation.
And if he did see the video and the he did decide that, I still
think he's wrong, because the video does show Verstappen picking a
line and a speed which was pretty clearly going to carry him right
to the exit kerb and hence was going to put Hamilton off the track
entirely, and that's still a breach of the requirement to leave a
competitor racing room, but it at least explains how we got where we
are.
So no deliberate steering twitch *at* HAM then , but clearly a
deliberate line that was never remotely likely to make the corner.
It was going to make the corner until Verstappen picked up some
understeer.
Never. He chose the angle of entry into the corner and width 'early on'.
But he's responsible for leaving room...
...and he clearly wasn't going to leave any.
That too.
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until after
the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was rCyunavailable >> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned.rCO >>
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control had
not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from VerstappenrCOs
car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting
its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not-aFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be
pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to
be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
doesn't
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review >> it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own bat)
but doesn't have to.-a The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM to
take evasive action when he had right of way.
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the FIA don't want to look at it.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-hamilton-and-vertappen-tangle-on-lap-48.1716428716156816395.html?minutetv=true
geoff
On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not-aFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground
after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the incident >>>> so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be
pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to
be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
doesn't
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various
exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After review >>> it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own
bat)
but doesn't have to.-a The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
to take evasive action when he had right of way.
But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?
I guess we will never get to see VER's steering-wheel video, and the
FIA don't want to look at it.
On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not-aFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it
given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to be >>>>> pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to
Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need to >>>>> be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
doesn't
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the various >>>> exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or suspected
breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After
review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their own
bat)
but doesn't have to.-a The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
to take evasive action when he had right of way.
But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?
Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make the
edge, oversterer later or not.
On 2021-11-16 5:43 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it still >>>>>> open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an-aFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it >>>>> doesn't
opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to
be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent with >>>>>> other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open to >>>>>> Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need
to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards?
appear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the
various
exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or
suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After
review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves."
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their
own bat)
but doesn't have to.-a The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM causing
an approach which would never have made the corner And of course HAM
to take evasive action when he had right of way.
But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?
Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make the
edge, oversterer later or not.
You're wrong. You're not even close to right.
And the problem was UNDERSTEER.
On 17/11/2021 2:48 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-16 5:43 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 1:35 pm, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-15 4:01 p.m., geoff wrote:
On 16/11/2021 2:39 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
On Monday, 15 November 2021 at 13:33:18 UTC, Matt Larkin wrote:
Don't know if this is a thing or not, but as the stewards have not >>>>>>> given an opinion on the Max / Lewis incident in the race, is it >>>>>>> stillappear as if a decision to investigate or not is covered by the
open to a post race sanction? A bit like a footballer punching an >>>>>>> opponent but it only being caught on a CCTV camera inside the ground >>>>>>> after the match after a referee, linesman and VAR all miss the
incident
so can't make a judgement.
I know we all *saw* it, but given how all of the journos seem to >>>>>>> be pretty
unanimous that they think the incident is massively inconsistent >>>>>>> with
other incidents and rulings this year, is the avenue still open >>>>>>> to Mercedes
to push it in front of a panel? Or do all in-race incidents need >>>>>>> to be fully
done and dusted during the race or within a short time afterwards? >>>>>> -aFrom a quick (probably too quick) review of the sporting regs, it >>>>>> doesn't
various
exemptions from appeals.
"38) INCIDENTS DURING THE RACE
38.1 The Race Director may report any on-track incident or
suspected breach of these Sporting
Regulations or the Code (an rCLIncidentrCY) to the stewards. After >>>>>> review it shall be at the discretion
of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an
investigation.
The stewards may also investigate an Incident noted by themselves." >>>>>>
So Masi "may" report (and the stewards can investigate off their
own bat)
but doesn't have to.-a The stewards "may", but don't have to.
So can they be compelled to?
Check out this video at 0:22 , 0:41, 1:04, and 1:17.
Looks to me that VER, very momentarily, steered out into HAM
causing an approach which would never have made the corner And of
course HAM to take evasive action when he had right of way.
But now you agree that at no time did Verstappen "steer OUT" right?
Yes, already. But the initially trajectory was never going to make
the edge, oversterer later or not.
You're wrong. You're not even close to right.
And the problem was UNDERSTEER.
Yes, mis-typed.
Disagree with anything here ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPKjVrxvgbI
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Sorry, but I think you're wrong.
On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that competitors
bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was rCyunavailable >>> to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision
concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control
had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from
VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and,
at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting
its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a full-time
dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
Hispanics. Eh ?
geoff
On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
competitors bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was >>>> rCyunavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the
decision concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided not
to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race control
had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera from
VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car and, >>>> at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was broadcasting >>>> its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
Hispanics. Eh ?
geoff
Racist, much?
On 2021-11-17 8:31 a.m., News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
competitors bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that was >>>>> rCyunavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the >>>>> decision concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided
not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race
control had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera
from VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car
and, at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was
broadcasting its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
Hispanics. Eh ?
geoff
Racist, much?
I think he's implying you are...
On 11/17/2021 1:26 PM, Alan wrote:
On 2021-11-17 8:31 a.m., News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 5:58 PM, geoff wrote:
On 17/11/2021 10:59 am, News wrote:
On 11/16/2021 4:01 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 11/16/2021 3:27 PM, Alan wrote:
So I guess the only question I've got remaining is:
Did the Race Director see that video at the time?
Masi has said that they did not, that it was not available until
after the event; Mercedes has filed for right-of-review:
"The rules of right of review are clear, and require that
competitors bring rCya significant and relevant new elementrCO that >>>>>> was rCyunavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of >>>>>> the decision concerned.rCO
"Mercedes will first have to prove that a new element has been
discovered, and this should be straightforward with the onboard
footage from VerstappenrCOs car.
"It emerged on the Sunday night in Brazil, after the FIA decided
not to investigate the Verstappen/Hamilton incident, that race
control had not had access to the forward facing onboard camera
from VerstappenrCOs car.
"F1rCOs current technology limits just one live feed off each car >>>>>> and, at the time of the incident, VerstappenrCOs Red Bull was
broadcasting its rear facing onboard."
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mercedes-asks-for-right-to-review-over-verstappen-hamilton-brazil-incident/6788474/
[paywalled]
Sure. And let's go to the video of the Mercs' flexy flaps, a
full-time dynamic DRS, on their 'legal' static tested wing.
Surely you mean HAM's flexi-flaps. And probably TSU's too. Everybody
elses' flexi-flaps would be OK, though not 'too sure' about the
Hispanics. Eh ?
geoff
Racist, much?
I think he's implying you are...
Obsessed much?
Oh, right, that's your MO.
I think he's implying you are...
On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:26:46 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
I think he's implying you are...
There you go thinking again, fucking moron.
And note that he basically says that but for the understeer that Verstappen's car got (which he agrees with me did happen), Verstappen
would have made the corner.
I'm sorry, but the logical (if not legal) move for Verstappen is to keep
his own car on the track but force Hamilton off it. There is not
advantage to be gained by going off the track himself.
Alan <nope@nope.com> wrote:
And note that he basically says that but for the understeer that
Verstappen's car got (which he agrees with me did happen), Verstappen
would have made the corner.
I'm sorry, but the logical (if not legal) move for Verstappen is to keep
his own car on the track but force Hamilton off it. There is not
advantage to be gained by going off the track himself.
I agree (more or less) with most of that, but totally disagree on the
last point.
It's a bit cynical, but there is one clear advantage to him going off
the track himself.
You may disagree, but I believe that - given their relative positions
and assuming he trusts that Hamilton will avoid contact - you can
assume:
1. Going off the track ensures that Hamilton will too.
(This was pretty much guaranteed with that line even if he keeps
it just about on the track).
2. In doing so, he will still be able to retain track position as
he will be able to get back on-track before Hamilton. Hamilton
would always have the more circuitous route.
3. Because he goes off the track, he has a *much* better argument
as to why he shouldn't be penalised. He can argue that it was
just one of those things and how it had compromised his own
racing line.
I'm not saying that this was his thinking, but it may have been.
If he had managed to keep his car on the track and Hamilton was forced
off, he would have a much tougher conversation in the event of an investigation. Wouldn't you agree?
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