First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
So...
Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.
In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
Or is not really that big a deal?
FWIW
DLM
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 11:29 AM, D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW
DLM

I would have thought that it wouldn't take much to just respray the
paint on the car.

Okay, they'd want to strip off the previous paint to keep the weight
down, but I'm sure they would have chemical paint strippers available.

On the other hand, I wonder if there would be equipment available to
them to do all that. At the factory, sure, but at a track, maybe not.

And it is just testing. They likely have more to worry about than a few
tenths worth of aero.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 8:29 a.m., D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

I doubt it's a big deal except in a few very limited locations (where I
would be they avoid placing the edge of a decal).

Do a little googling about the "boundary layer".

:-)
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:52:57 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

Do a little googling about the "boundary layer".

fuck you
you fucking cunt
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.




--
It's pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth
have both failed.
-- Kim Hubbard
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
as well suited to improving the handling.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where >>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of >>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be >>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
as well suited to improving the handling.

Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was introduced
for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to be a kilo overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was stripped off
overnight and next day the car conformed.

A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.
--
Sir Tim
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 1:34 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:

Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the >>>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where >>>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of >>>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues. >>>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, >>>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that >>>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it >>>> sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but >>>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be >>>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters >>>> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out? >>>>
Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce >>> drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
as well suited to improving the handling.

Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was introduced
for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to be a kilo overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was stripped off
overnight and next day the car conformed.

A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.

It might be apocryphal I suppose...

...but Mercedes-Benz seems to think it's true:

'It was a simple idea in 1934 that made silver the colour of racing
success rCo success that persists through today. It all began on the eve
of the Eifel race at the weighing station on the N|+rburgring. The
regulations allowed no vehicle to weigh more than 750 kilograms. The
brand new W 25 weighed one kilogram too much however. Alfred Neubauer,
manager of the Mercedes-Benz racing team, had the white paint ground
off, leaving a purely aluminium body that sparkled in silver. The next
morning Manfred von Brauchitsch took his seat at the wheel of the
lightened, 750 kg car and won the race with a commanding performance.
Later he was to tell the press: rCLTo drive a Silver Arrow is an honour.rCY'

<https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/classic/history/mercedes-benz-silver-arrows/>

:-)
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

Sir Tim wrote:

Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible

and the >>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit
in the US where >>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised
gas prices which is >>> trivial compared to the suffering in the
Ukraine and potentially more of >>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues. >>> On the other hand, this
is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, >>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our >>> discussions about the
sport we love is worthwhile. >>>

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively

assumed that >>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the
media coverage, it >>> sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't

much but >>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems
like it might be >>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact
of the few millimeters >>> in surface elevation changes across the
car etc.) >>>

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all

the >>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully
kitted out? >>>

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt

that >> decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1

are not >> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to
significantly reduce >> drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of
paint on the cars. I infer that where weight is located matters a
great deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least
-- effect on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight
higher and not as well suited to improving the handling.

Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was
introduced for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to
be a kilo overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was
stripped off overnight and next day the car conformed.

A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.

Yup.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/28/the-paint-scraping-myth-why-the-story-behind-mercedes-special-livery-isnt-true/

Daryll might note the last paragraph:

"Ironically, applying the special livery had the opposite effect on its
current cars. rCLI can tell you itrCOs definitely not making the car lighter,rCY admitted Toto Wolff yesterday,... rCLIn all the briefing sheets prior to this weekend the engineers pointed out rCytoo heavy stickersrCOrCarCY --- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 26/02/2022 2:29 am, D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW
DLM

Are the cars actually painted, or do they use a vinyl wrap?
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 5:08 p.m., keithr0 wrote:

On 26/02/2022 2:29 am, D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US
where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which
is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially
more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder
sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed
that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media
coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might
be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few
millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW
DLM

Are the cars actually painted, or do they use a vinyl wrap?

There's a good possibility that they're wrapped at the moment, because
the sponsor packages aren't yet finalized.

I saw a series of YouTube videos that Mercedes did where they repainted
the cars between races.
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)

On 2022-02-25 12:36 p.m., Darryl Johnson wrote:

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where >>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of >>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be >>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
as well suited to improving the handling.

But you're talking about deltas.

Lets say the paint masses 5kg total. The cars mass a minimum of 795kg,
so the paint 0.6% of the total mass.

Even if you stripped the car bare, you're just not going to move the
centre of mass enough for anyone to notice.

CoM height for an F1 car is probably around the wheel axle height or a
bit higher (it's hard to get all of the engine and its ancillaries
packaged to get it lower than that); call it 360mm.

If all the paint was in a can at the top of the airbox (950mm by
regulation) and you moved it to the bottom.

You'd have ((5*950)+(790*360))/795 = 363mm centre of mass height.

Now strip the paint and put the 5 kg at the very bottom of the car (say
50mm from the road surface):

((5*50)+(790*360))/795 = 358mm

5mm of shift.

And that is a completely impossible thought experiment.

For a realistic look at it, you're probably going to shift the centre of
mass by less than 2mm
--- SBBSecho 3.06-Win32
* Origin: SportNet Gateway Site (24:150/2)